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SEL in Action
SEL in Action
SECs in Distance Leadership Series: Episode 3 w/ Marie-Hélène Brunet
I speak with Marie-Hélène Brunet, an Assistant Professor in the Faculty of Education at the University of Ottawa, about the social & emotional competencies needed for online teaching and learning in higher education. Marie-Hélène provides a thoughtful reflection on her experience as an online educator and what she feels will be important for teaching and learning online as more courses & programs are shifted online.
The SECs in Distance Leadership Series was created for the SECs in Distance Leadership Graduate Course that I taught in the Spring/Summer of 2020. The interviews were conducted with educators and leaders about the changes they've seen and what they think will be pivotal as we move forward from the COVID work-from-home and emergency online teaching/learning mandates.
For full transcript and show notes, please visit https://sel-in-action.com/podcast-ep-3.
You're listening to the SEL in Action podcast. The podcast where we explore with social and emotional learning look like in educational and professional settings. I'm your host, Heather Woods. And today on episode three, we will be speaking with Professor Marie-Hélène Brunet, about what social emotional competencies are required in higher education. This episode is part of the social and emotional competencies in distance leadership series. So today I am speaking with Marie-Hélène Brunet about her perspectives on the role of social and emotional competencies and leadership and education at a distance. And so Marie-Hélène is an assistant professor here at the Faculty of Education at the University of Ottawa and she focuses on supporting teachers and teaching history and navigating questions around gender, race, equity, class and language. so Merci, MMarie-Hélène pour prends du temps pour parler avec moi.
Marie-Hélène :Merci pour l'invitation. Thank you for having me over.
Heather Woods :Yeah, thank you so much. Um, we've been kind of communicating by email just about kind of what's under this umbrella of social emotional competencies and the skills within it. So there's kind of a lot of skills within so self awareness, self management, social awareness, relationship building skills and decision making competencies. So I'm wondering which skills you see as the most essential for educators when teaching at a distance.
Marie-Hélène :When I received your email, I'm like, this is all really important. I don't know if I'm good at at putting out all of this in my syllabus or in my course. I think I might be doing a lot of that relationship building. The social awareness And I would think the the self management, the two other ones are also important but maybe I would need to have a I don't know to to meet with you to discuss and see how you because I felt like I was thinking, am I really having them? Like really thinking that I probably probably did I'm doing it but not like self consciously on my side like it happens but the three other ones that I just said are probably the ones where I can see in my syllabus and then the way I'm teaching that I do, I do some of those things that you are putting there.
Heather Woods :And so what does like you mentioned like relationship building first there. So what does that look like either in your syllabus or like in your practices to kind of help you foster relationships with your students?
Marie-Hélène :Well, that the relationship building is like I start I would say even before the semester starts, I will send an email to every student and just say hi so I'm your professor and I would like to know a bit more about you and please feel welcome and no the class hasn't started but if you have any questions I am available and the very first and if there's like a text that they have to get that they have a book, a mandatory book, all of this will be like known in advance so that they it's not a surprise like once they arrive, okay, I need to get this book. I don't know where, like I have those pretty long emails. I'm trying to put as much as information. A challenge to do this before the class actually starts is that sometimes you have new students coming in during the first and Second, and sometimes I saw on the third week that like, sometimes I feel like I've helped a lot the ones that were, you know, on my list first and those ones are kind of coming in and I feel like they will always be trying to catch the current. I don't know if that's an expression in English, but kind of just like, because I've done a lot of this. At the first during the first week, it really depends if I'm on an completely online, asynchronous or if I do have a synchronous, so I don't know if you were planning on talking about those two and the differences the bring. But let's say if I'm in a completely asynchronous, I will have a video of me presenting myself and I will invite them to go on a forum and present themselves. And I will guide them through questions saying, well, these are questions that you if you want to respond to them, you're free to, and the forum is there. But if you don't want to participate, this is not like a mandatory thing. But generally, in online classes, even when they were like I had a class with 40 last year, and I would say like 32, or 33 of them did participate in that forum and would reply to each other. So really, I think there's a need for them to kind of connect. And that if I had the list of questions you had like, you have all sorts of students, right, you have the students that will respond. What's my, what's my pronoun, this is my pronoun. What's this? And some other people who will just you know, build their own narrative and include those questions are not just themselves in different ways. I thought this is always fun. But you know, having those questions maybe is helpful in the sense that it's not just well go on that forum and present yourself, right? What is presenting myself some and but not putting it mandatory maybe helps, so that you don't they would they want to say something else they can. And if I'm in synchronous, I still keep that I still keep that forum. But during the first the first class when we see each other, I will ask them and sometimes if it's a larger group, they don't open their cameras or even in the smaller groups for all sorts of reasons. And I don't want to, like impose the camera. Sometimes I say, Well, if you can put your camera on or, or your sound or, you know, if you feel comfortable doing it and presenting yourself and, you know, most of them if not all them will do it, that presentation of just building that relationship, but it shouldn't end there. Right. So that's just the first thing you have to kind of sustain this, which I find is sometimes sometimes difficult. And sometimes they have two or three often like in French graduate, they will have two or three other online classes. Where they also have to do a presentation and they probably feel like it's a it's redundant. But generally they still, you know, like it. There's a point in the there's a lot of group activities. If I'm in synchronous, asynchronous, I find I found this to be very difficult to have activities. If I'm synchronous on Adobe, I use the workshop. Like I've learned, especially this semester, that If I talk for over a certain amount of time, you know, there's a point where there's no more reaction. And actually, there's people where I see the name, but if I ask a question or if they're not there anymore. So I kind of have to think my classes so that there's activities where there's relationship building, because of the nature of what I'm teaching that might that might include activities where emotions are at the center of it, right? If I did an activity, on, on on social construction of gender, well, I know this will. This will bring necessarily and we did one on privilege. So it brings emotions in any it's just, you know, with what I'm teaching, it just happens. It brings discomfort, but that also needs to be in that might be in The two other
Heather Woods :Competenciees
Marie-Hélène :Cmpetencies. But that also means work for me to be sure. And I can't be completely sure once they are in their workshop because I do go from one workshop to the other. But it's the same thing in a classroom. Right? If there are groups, there's just as much as you can know of what's going on as as much as you can. But that's, that's, you know, that's part of teaching but having clear, expect well expectancies for the course for the class for how we handle discussions for how we work in groups who are role of each one's will that still applies to an online format when we're on synchronous, Adobe, it sometimes needs to be reinforced. But it still has to be there, but I think I lost what I was saying. So we were with relationship building. So those activities, if they're done in regular, you know, each week. Yeah, I had a workshop every week so that they would need to connect. And I tried. I used and that's the question. I'm not sure if that's the that's the best way or not. I don't know if there's a best way, right? That's that's often the case in education, right? Yeah. Every week, because of the way Adobe works. It was, Aller a toi. So what's that word in English? It would bring the students in, in different groups every week. So they would work with different people from the from the class every week, which I thought was pretty neat.
Heather Woods :Yeah, so it randomizes them.
Marie-Hélène :Yeah, but I At the same time, if you're never talking with the same people, then it might be a bit harder. Like, I always give the opportunity even in a online asynchronous or synchronous to do their, their assignments in groups or individually. I will always have a few groups. I saw this time like, I had half, half of them did it in groups, and half of them did it. Generally, like not half of them are doing it. So maybe the fact that we had every week a synchronous activity might have helped building those relationships, but it might have just been the class of the people who knew each other from other classes. So yeah, I don't know if that a bit what you're looking for if you have more questions.
Heather Woods :So you mentioned I'm kind of at the start of the year, kind of having have them introduce yourself. So what are some of the questions that you're asking them to kind of kick start the year off and helping kind of get them to know each other a little bit better and for you to get to know them better?
Marie-Hélène :I'm always asking where they are in their academic, parcours academiques or their academic role,
Heather Woods :their academic journey. Yeah.
Marie-Hélène :Um, their experience, because at the MEd level, I think we get such a diversity right from people who just left the bed and have no experience in class except for for their their practicum, to principals and head of schools, who have like 25 years of experience and are doing the graduate courses. But this diversity for me is not It can be a challenge, but it's a good challenge. It's not something that I feel is making. I think it's something that makes it even more interesting for all of them, because they can connect in very different ways, right? Like now in my course for gender and education, I had people from the feminist and gender Institute, and I had people who had never heard any kind of words related to gender. So I had like, I had to differentiate, yeah, do some differentiation in my course, in my syllabus, and that I think, could also end up in one of your competencies, right? Just for them to be that that might be a bit in self awareness, but maybe more than self management. Like knowing what I am and kind of choosing the kind of assignments, the extra readings, etc. I'm in function of Hold on. What was I saying? Sorry about this.
Heather Woods :Yeah, no worries. No, you're, I think you're touching on like differentiation and stuff. And I think on your part as the educator, that's like a lot of reflection and decision making skills and kind of analyzing the situations of knowing your students. Right. Yeah. So I think it's really, really interesting, too. And I mean, I, I'm doing the same thing with my students because, like you I have students from the arts, I have students from the sciences, I've got early teachers, I have seasoned principals, like, you know, I've med students and directors of medicine and you know, it's a, I think, a really fun challenge to kind of try and find ways like the readings and try to find ways to make sure they're like I tend to group them based on their experience. And smaller groups. Yeah. But then there's an open discussion where they can really they're all sharing their module activities, so they can really kind of learn from each other. And like now we're almost at the end of the course. But a lot of them are commenting like, oh, now I'm understanding how this broadly applies, like outside of my you know, area and field. And so like they're starting to see these connections about how it all kind of we're all on very similar journeys, but different applications, right.
Marie-Hélène :And sometimes, sometimes it is a challenge for me like to think out of my own experience because I was a teacher in high school. I always think education as you know, elementary High School. It's it's hard for me Like for the people coming from those health, from from University from, from museums from different education is a big word, right? It's not Yeah. But sometimes it is like I had to take a step back and say okay, it's not only school right so yeah, we get this outside of the, and even for me as a history educator, it's it's not even just school like it's classroom. Like my mind is set up like it what happens in the classroom, the teacher, the students in high school. So I kind of have to expand my my thinking so that I include everyone. But also that still that my expertise, you know, be something of interest, so I can still use it, but I still spend so that I can go and touch different interests and even for me, that's good. brings me to think outside of my little box, I think for anything related to emotion that that also comes in, right? Because we're we are professors we have positionalities we have and and it's sometimes it's hard to make that thinking that if we want to contribute to those competencies that you have, well, if I want to contribute to that, I have to think of my own competencies which are not always so good. So, if I want to be able to help my students, sometimes I have to think of my own emotions teaching some specific topics or or teaching how to manage, How do I think of my own managed self management skills?
Heather Woods :Yeah.
Marie-Hélène :So it brings another layer to it, I think, yeah, if we don't do that step to actually think of our own positionality is our own our own ways of doing things and how that might influence. And just the fact that we are the professor, like I try to pretend to have had this thinking where I want them to feel, especially in that diversity that we were talking about, like, You are all experts of different things. I'm not for a lot of topics I I know way less than you. So I want us to feel like everyone has a contribution to make but I can't Forget that they still see me. And legitimately, right, they see me as the professor as the one, giving them marks as the one, you know, deciding how this course works, how this, so I can't just like, be there and, and and, and so there's like a fine line on saying, Ah, please contribute, please. But in their mind, I will always be a professor. I don't know if you're understanding what I'm saying. I'm like,
Heather Woods :No, no, it makes sense. It's, um, it feeds into that, like what you mentioned before, with the social awareness, right? Like there's social awareness on our part, as the professor as seen as this expert, right, but then there's social contexts that we're trying to create and make space for And make people feel safe. Yeah. And then there's like communicating that to our students. So I think yeah, it's like all that reflecting on our positionality in the social context and then trying to understand what they're experiencing in that social situation. So I think we can jump into that and kind of like so what are you doing in understanding like social awareness maybe on your part, but also with the students and kinda trying to communicate the social context that you're trying to create.
Marie-Hélène :This time, I think my last course on gender and education is the one where I have been thinking the most about it because before that, for online courses, I always had a part about in the syllabus about respect la netiquette. I don't know how you say this in english
Heather Woods :Nettiquette
Marie-Hélène :Okay. So kind of explaining it also either when I'm because if I'm completely asynchronous, I will record myself explaining the syllabus. And oh yes, it's in the syllabus, but they will also have my voice explaining a bit more. In my synchronous class this time, I added something because of something different things that happened before self awareness of what has happened it especially in forums online,
Heather Woods :yes.
Marie-Hélène :And I can say that I had the privilege this time to have a very small group. So I took the decision to monitor the forum, the online forum, which I had not done before and which had led situations where it's uncomfortable for me for students and puts some students in the class some of the students in the class in not safe situations. I'm this is really a struggle for me because I feel no matter how much we talk about netiquette and there's rules and I'm always, you know, explaining this is not to censor yourself, it's to think that you are in a community, right that that would you say has an impact that you have to think of how this might be received to the others. And I say if you were in a classroom right, you would think there's this expression tourner ta langue sept fois avant de parler. Like, I don't know if that exists in English, like, turn your your, Your tongue seven times in your mouth before saying something. And I use it as saying, Well, you know, there's, you know, things I can ask, like, when I'm writing something, is someone going to be hurt? And I do, I did do this when I wasn't monitoring. But it still happened because it is, you know, this this. I want to create a safe classroom, but I can't promise a safe classroom because we're humans with emotions, and sometimes someone doesn't realize I don't think I haven't had any case where I think it was violent in a in a in a desired way. And I can in a conscious way, right. Yeah. person was saying this. didn't have the intention to hurt someone else, right.
Heather Woods :Yeah.
Marie-Hélène :But it's still like Ended up? Probably doing? Yeah, um, so anyways because of cases and I could give you some some, some examples, but I think you may imagine what would that do when we talk about race gender, it brings up. So this time I did monitor and I did during the synchronous online. I did take like, I don't know how long it was, but I really took the time to explain to them this is not i'm not censoring. What happens is if I read something, and I feel like it might hurt someone in the class, that that maybe it's just phrased in a way that, you know, I don't feel like this is something that that should be published. Well, I'm going to write to you. I'm going to explain it and we can have a chat and so to help you better understand and and then you can change your posts and and it has. And so it's not like I'm not censoring you cause I still want your idea to be out there, then there's ways of saying it or so. And then during that discussion I said you have questions. Do you understand what that means? And and please do not feel like I'm attacking you if I'm saying no, because I will never just like refuse your post and not say anything right? I will refuse your post and write to you privately. And, and and and nobody will have seen that post or will have known that you had, you know, and it happened take it was a group of 12 and I had to use that only twice in the semester but still It was it went super well, like I did have a chat with each person and they understood and, and it was like No, I had no idea. Oh, I know I understand why this might sound. Um, so yeah, I think monitoring was a good option but I'm really thinking How is that possible if I get a class with more than 20 even because even with like, a teacher assistant and you need to putting that responsibility to teacher assistant is not.
Heather Woods :It's a lot.
Marie-Hélène :It's a lot. It's a big responsibility. And if, if I have this discussion at the first class or even in a video in asynchronous and I'm explaining why I'm monitoring the forum But then it's the teacher assistant who, like it feels like there's a breach of of brise de confiance [break of trust], between, like, so. Yeah, I haven't. I don't know if I can sustain this. I don't know if there's researches on this, because I'm not an expert. Yeah,
Heather Woods :I don't. Like I wouldn't say that I am like an expert expert on online learning and discussions and like, what I have found and in the work that I've done with like, Michelle and Megan in the faculty, and kind of digital literacies and is that no matter what the research says, like, it works sometimes and it doesn't work other times like, right, just any type of teaching. That's how it has to go.
Marie-Hélène :that's research in education. Right, right. It's great to read then you try that you love some of it, then some of it doesn't apply. Yeah, on every context is so, so different.
Heather Woods :Right? Yeah, exactly. But I think it's really interesting that you're providing these opportunities for students to engage in kind of their perspective taking and self reflection. And, you know, I think, you know, maybe even if it were a larger class, to let them sit on their posts for like, 24 hours or something,
Marie-Hélène :yeah, that's good. I love that.
Heather Woods :Yeah, so then you're setting up the groundwork at the start of the term and saying like, Okay, I will approve your post within 24 hours, but like, take that time to kind of think about what you're saying and think about the impact on others and how you're communicating. Because one of the things that we talk about in this course so much is, you know, you have to be so aware and self aware of how you're communicating? Yeah. Right. Because if you're not doing a video, all that body language, I mean, even in the video, you don't see, like how I'm standing or how I'm positioned, you know, as my body language open, you don't see that I'm sitting cross legged, like, you know, like all that stuff, especially if you're just doing it by email or discussion forum, or, you know, if it's text based, all that's removed. And so we've talked about, like, the studies where like, you know, if somebody responds just like to a text message and just as K instead of Okay, or okay with an A Y, or like how that could be interpreted and like, there's just a natural tendency for negative interpretation bias, right, when it's text base that like, oh, maybe that I said it the wrong way and like, or they're mad at me or like, we just, there's a natural tendency to go that way.
Marie-Hélène :And so I think that's why we're using so much emoji too yes. Okay with like a happy face. Yeah seems suddenly like okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, no, it feels Yeah. Yeah. So know about that kind of research. I want to read it now. Yeah.
Heather Woods :So actually there's a few years ago some people over at Carleton did a study, Mila Kingsbury and Rob Coplan. So that's where I know the research from because I've worked with them. But yeah, it's it's so interesting. So there's that level of like, you know, communication and maybe taking that time or providing space for them to take that time and reflect on you know, the perspective taking the understanding the social norms and expectations of the group and, you know, and then that's also based on you being able to communicate those things
Marie-Hélène :with gender and some topics that the. It's also there's so many unconscious beliefs right
Heather Woods :that hmm
Marie-Hélène :you know, even when a woman is pregnant, right she a lot of people will just ask to get the sex of the baby before the baby's born. There's already expectations put on him or her or they will Yeah, in that case him or her. right there's already expectations and all our society is so based on We need someone Okay Is it is it men is it women and if it's not if we can't put a tag, it generally makes people uncomfortable but understanding that and how much of it is from from the very moment we're born or even before it's it is a very tough task. It is it is. It is probably And I'm working these questions and I'm a feminist and sometimes it's, it still blows my mind how much there's so much that is integrated, unconsciously right. And it explains how we see the world how we understand the world, how we classify the world, but then it ends up during a course it can have very emotional impacts and if we are not able to analyze where those emotional responses come from, right, it was Megan bowler. I don't know if you're,
Heather Woods :it sounds familiar.
Marie-Hélène :Yeah, she at OISE and she worked like the pedagogy of discomfort and she knows about those cherished beliefs right. But to understand how you react to someone, whether it be like a resistance, or rage because you've learned about oppression or It's like all those resistance or fear. Well where does or where does it come from? Hmm and and making that step to understanding where it comes from is not easy and I wouldn't I will not pretend that I am there yet at bringing my students to be able like that first competency of self awareness. I'm still working on this and I think one of the reason is is myself having difficulties to analyze myself so it's a work in progress but it the questions of emotion that's why when you wrote it like on Twitter, I wrote to you because it's, it is so important for me and even in history teaching I've been doing some research with student teachers as to know like, what are the topics you want to bring in the classroom and What are the topics you don't want to bring? or How will you bring like the these difficult histories? What What do you do you think that you have a neutral position? And so all that question of emotion specifically in the history classroom has been of interest for me. So emotions more at large and teaching and an online teaching. I think it's always there. It's I don't think as educators that we have reflected enough on the importance of emotions, I think. I think it has, we want to rationalize things even like, critical pedagogies What are they often dismiss emotions, right?
Heather Woods :Yeah.
Marie-Hélène :So that's why like anti oppressive education starts to bring it but the word emotion Is not there so much yet. So I think it's like the next step we need to take and it's a. So it's a tough one. I I don't pretend having a good face or I'm just I'm just trying. Yeah. Um, yeah.
Heather Woods :But I think that is one of the important things as well is that like as, like the leader in the course the educator, you know, particularly I find, because I'm teaching this stuff, like there's an assumption that we are like the expert, right and like, No, we need to let them know that there is that wiggle room and like that vulnerability and being like, you know, I'm still working with this.
Marie-Hélène :Yeah.
Heather Woods :Right. Like, I'm still reflecting I'm still learning about myself and understanding, you know, what has influenced me and my position and how I'm like communicating and. You know, understanding my beliefs and you know, because we use like bronfenbrenner bio ecological systems thinking just to kind of start thinking about those external influences. So like, you know, how does culture influence what we believe how is, you know, our parents, our family and like, but then the interactions between like our parents and school, you know, like those little things that have influenced us and like, you know, our access to, you know, health support, like how has that shaped who we are, and you know, how we've learned these competencies but also how they might be expressed, right? In like those settings, so like, you know, when you're discussing those difficult situations and feelings and stuff, that you know, responding with, like rage or responding with, you know, being upset or whatever emotions come out. I think It gives you that frame to kind of look at that, but then to also take the perspective, hopefully. And it sounds like that's what you're trying to do is kind of moderating the conversation a little bit is providing that opportunity to be like, oh, like, it's almost engaging in nel noddings ethics of care where she's like, you know, it's not about how you would feel in the situation, you need to understand how they like, what context and what perspectives are they bringing, that would influence how they read what you're writing or that sort of thing. So yeah, that's that's really awesome.
Marie-Hélène :Well, there's something that I do when I'm, I would say, just the last two years when I'm teaching in normal, not a normal classroom that I'm working in real norm but like, you know, the thing we haven't seen for months now Yeah. But I say, I don't put it in my syllabus, but I will say it and now I've added it for the first time in my syllabus for my gender and education. And I've also did it in my presentation, and it relates to what you were saying is like, I'm not perfect, I'm not an expert on everything. I'm also navigating gender, because, you know, what I've been doing is one very small expertise in that big field. And even for that, I can I can do mistakes I can and if at one point I say or, or you read something or there is something that disturbs you, please like feel free to call me on it, like of course write to me or have a discussion and, you know, I I'm still learning so hopefully this is this is a way also to kind of accept that those emotions can be there and that they are legitimate. Yeah, that sometimes Well, I think I'm learning a lot from my students too. They are learning a bit in the classes not only from me, but from, from their colleagues. And, you know, there's what we want to do. And then there's what we really achieve. And I don't know if they would call me on it. It hasn't happened, right. But I've learned from them in different ways, like it different, you know, new concepts that I hadn't heard about, like this happen in my course on the posts on the forum like, like, people were so informed on different topics that this, this Yes. And from the diversity that we were talking about in our classrooms, I do learn a lot But for now, like haven't received any comments on stuff I've been saying in class always welcomed it. So I'm thinking it might happen at a point, right? But the, the, the power differential is still there or perceived. So I it doesn't mean that I'm not saying things that might be problematic, right? It's just saying like maybe they don't feel comfortable enough right now to call me on it. So I'm trying to make the space as as open to this as as it's possible. And to say like, you don't have to call me on it like, in front of everyone. You can do it privately you're I understand, you know that I'm still the one putting the marks like if you're a student, how much what's your leverage there? What do you perceive
Heather Woods :Yeah,
Marie-Hélène :when it's not something that is done in other courses, then like why why would she let us do this? And if I do this in another class and it brought it, I did this in another class for for another professor and it brought me bad things. I'm not going to try doing this. Yeah. Here. So, yeah, yeah.
Heather Woods :But I think it's like, It acknowledges that like, there's so much ingrained beliefs and understandings about, you know, what education is like, what teaching and the power dynamic is. And I think what you're doing provides that like maybe first step in challenging those, you know, deeply held beliefs about the, you know, Oh, I can't confront my teacher because, you know, it'll backfire or but it's in us being vulnerable and opening up and openly and explicitly trying to create that space. I think it's one of those first steps that, you know, even if they're not coming to us and challenging what we're saying that maybe, you know, they're they do feel more open and just talking in the course, to maybe each other, or I think it just reinforces that this is a space of learning, right, and that learning is more than just the content that we're exploring.
Marie-Hélène :And I think maybe the if it is it changing, I think it is changing socially. So if it changes outside of classroom, just what we've seen in the in the last few weeks weeks following the Floyd murder, but no other movements like the me too movement changed, changed a lot of things can around sexual harassment on the campus, so, you know, there's things changing that might help bring this in the classroom or making it, you know, more generalized and not be the exception. But
Heather Woods :yeah, oh, I think I was reading the other day that you know, you can't have social emotional learning without, you know, an anti racist perspective. Because that's part like if we're looking at kind of CASEL so it's the American large group that does the research on on social emotional learning, like social awareness perspective taking and like deeply analyzing You know, our surroundings and reflecting and all that stuff, you can't have that without challenging and thinking about, you know, what is happening around us. And I think, you know, those movements like me too, and the black lives matter. You know, Black Lives Matter isn't new, but there's been so much you know, within the last little bit that happened, but it's really brought it to the forefront of everybody's mind. And I think that's, you know, just reinforcing that conversation that you know, even outside of school, these social emotional competencies and reflecting and communicating, thinking about what's happening around us is just so critical. And then bringing that back to the classroom is providing that space to how do we go about thinking critically and having these discussions in a respectful and you know, aware way Taking in other perspectives and, you know, it's not jumping on people if you think that they're wrong, it's, you know, listening and trying to understand where they're coming from and, you know, that broader picture and stuff. So that's fantastic. Like it. Think about, like, you know, the the role that social emotional learning can play in analyzing what's happening around us like these massive things that are happening around us. As you know, kind of the drapes are being pulled back and everything. So yeah, I think that
Marie-Hélène :I think it also brings one important questions and I've had it more specifically in history, education, because often, like even in curriculums, there's one of the critical skills Which is perspective, but it's perspective with an S like, but it is often understood as I'm going to show you the two sides. Yeah. Um, and that for me, I'm trying to fight this because this often ignores social emotion like that ignores power differentials. Like there's an event and you just show a white supremacist as as an equivalent option to anti racism is it's just not to equal perspectives and if teachers we show this as being equal than we I think we reinforce the perspective that already has too much media exposure. Yeah, too much power already. in society or that threatens some some groups or individuals. So yeah, it's a difficult question because every time I I bring it up or I think maybe the way, sometimes we frame some some topics as being controversies that might be problematic, but that's also a thinking that I'm having if I'm thinking if I'm saying that, that when we talk about gender, we bring up controversies, then if I open up the door to say that it's a controversy, I'm opening up the door to some opinions based on facts and that are threatening, right. So and in history, will you bring in a new layer, right because you're talking about things that happened in the past. You're supposed to take critical distance, but we wouldn't be interested about the past if we were not thinking about the present. So we can't completely take a distance. And so that's also and all of this, well, you mix this out with all those identities and, and and well, you have a lot of emotion out there. So yeah, yeah. Um, I think that the notion of controversy is maybe controversial. Yeah, yeah. It's something I've been thinking about, like, how do I frame some of those topics when I when I bring them in. If we talk about slaves, During a history class, and, you know, there's always the argument. Well, you know, what, in this in this other era, well, it was just normal, you know, it was the thing, and it was just accepted. And then it's just asking the question, you know, by who? You think this slaves themselves thought this was normal? So it's not? It's I think it's making them realize also that the way even curriculums sometimes, but history narratives are written and they're not neutral. They always you know, the way it's formulated always has a perspective. Yes. Who do you put as the one doing the history Oracle change, right?
Heather Woods :Mm hmm.
Marie-Hélène :I've drifted to something else. But
Heather Woods :no, I think it really highlights like that critical thinking piece let's like falls in the problem solving category. So I'm just conscious of time. So I'll end on kind of what do you think are like the key practices or what is critical for the future of online teaching and learning?
Marie-Hélène :I think it's the main thing is that you always have to have a presence right. And I'm scared that for and we've seen this because of the recent context. A lot of people who say they don't have any problems with teaching online. Well, if you if you were teaching for three hours in front of an auditorium and you're teaching while you're doing the same thing, it won't change the fact that they're there they're as they're passive, right? So for me, we have to find ways to engage students actively in online learning, but to have them engage means that I have to be present that I have to, for example, generally around the half semester, I will write an individual email just saying okay, you know, you have like, four posts already. You need to have two more posts. This is your average right now. This was your first assignment. So just you know, remind them like where you are right now that may be like the self management but If you have and remind them that I know this is an online asynchronous, please feel free to, to write and ask for a meeting. If at this point, you feel like you need a little help, or you just want to talk or you just want to anything, just remind them that you are there. That's one thing and yeah, I'm trying to think even when you have large, larger classes, how this can be active, not active in responding to an online quiz, right? But what depends on the kind of quiz. It can be fun things to Yeah, but not just like, these are the readings This is my video or even worse, like these are the readings, these are the assignments. Have a good semester, right? Yeah. And from what I've heard from students this happens but then is it teaching is it there's like nothing pedagogical in that. So yeah, I think the fight will be to for me It implies that we have a union and and and people defending our rights to have small groups so that I can have I can build something with my students. Yeah. I wouldn't know like the number except I can tell you where I start feeling like it's too much to handle. Like over 20 online for me for what Yeah, do over 20 feels overwhelming. Yeah, I don't know if that response to
Heather Woods :Yeah, I think just that, you know, if we want our students to be engaged, we ourselves need to be engaged. Right. And so that's, you know, like, thinking through all those things that we've been talking about, and, you know, finding ways to communicate that so that we can create that space. Yeah, I know, in terms of class size, like I have 35 right now. And yeah, if I, I messaged, we have like, formative feedback every two weeks. If I were doing that for the whole class every two weeks, like, that's just Yes. You know, and I'm always open on office hours and, you know, sending messages otherwise, but so my TA and I kind of switch each one but then like, you know, when I jump back into the, like, when we flip back, I'm always just like, Oh, I feel like I haven't talked to this person in forever. Yeah, it's tough, but like, you know, that was the way we found kind of works at the moment.
Marie-Hélène :I know, there's like, there's ways you can have like, because generally when there's an assignment, for example, Mm hmm. And I do this, like when I'm teaching online on the campus, right, I will have like, read those assignments and identified like, three or five elements that you know, were problematic or we're very good at or and I'll have like this general feedback before I hand an assignment just saying like, Well, you know, this happened this is this. If we go back how what could we do this and I and he like in larger groups, this is a possibility right? Instead of individual feedback. Then we still lose that relationship, individual relationship. Now. Whether on campus, will they still see me they can still. There's there's something that Yeah, yeah, we might get better at this, but I hope we do. Yeah. Making them understand that they should and they can ask for or for for a meeting for. That they can have this, that I like the synchronous but it's not always possible like we have students in Africa or in Europe, so time. Sometimes it's just impossible like specially those classes in graduate schools, they're generally in the evening. So yeah. I thought to get to I have this this class with synchronous meetings. And I did have half like half synchronous meetings have asynchronous. And it's in the asynchronous that I did a lot of differentiation. Like it's plan like this is suggested. And step 12345 and extra steps for for the people who felt like or even like even like the step one if well, if you already know all those definitions, you know, just do this soon. Yeah, yeah. Anyways,
Heather Woods :awesome. Um, yeah, I think and like now, we're, I won't get into this too much because of time. But yeah, I know the university has like thrown it around a little bit. And like there's been lots of talk in the higher ed world about like, flex courses so like, they're almost I don't want to say requiring but hoping that we'll find ways to somehow manage teaching asynchronous for those that can, synchronously, those that wants to choose that route. And so like, that's something I've been thinking about. And I'll probably put something together as maybe an accompaniment to this. Yeah, for the students, and just trying to think through like, how do we do that? And yeah, so that will be interesting. I've read a couple articles in I think the Chronicle that ways that we might be able to do that. But yeah, it's it's an interesting way forward, I think in in finding ways, but then what does that require of us? As the educators.
Marie-Hélène :you know, for the fall like my husband at his university, he gets the choice to go teach there but with respecting social, this dead stuff? Yes, yeah. And and so the students if they are in the classroom, they, they have to keep that two meters. And so he said, Well, I'm going to work on on zoom or Adobe workshops and then they can really talk to each other and they will be more efficient in that case, but it's the what lacks for me, especially for history education or, and that's going to be the same for science education is you know, for elementary teachers, I have them working with Legos. I do like I do timelines where they do things and and they're, they're like a live timeline, I wouldn't know. That can really only be done in person without social distancing. So there's still some stuff that We can't do online. But online brings other possibilities. Yeah. Oh, I'm yeah. Yeah, there's the good and the bad and yeah, what I'm learning and that I have to keep an open mind and trying to find a ways but yeah, it does mean a lot of of engagement on on the professor side. When you're teaching it on campus, you kind of I think you feel more directly like when it works or not. online, you sometimes receive emails. Oh, this is great. I'm having a lot of fun. I'm learning a lot. But it's not as direct right? It's not the especially if they don't open their camera. You don't see the reaction?
Heather Woods :Yeah.
Marie-Hélène :Yeah, that's another emotional thing. How do you handle like, not knowing if the message the message passes? If
Heather Woods :Yeah.
Marie-Hélène :Yeah, that's another struggle.
Heather Woods :Yeah, for sure. Well, I'll wrap it up there because I'm conscious of your time. And so yeah, Merci Encore. It was such a pleasure talking to you. And yeah, I think this has been a really fruitful conversation. And just thinking through, you know, all these social emotional skills and competencies and how they apply to, you know, teaching in higher ed, and then, you know, you're able to even trickle that down to, you know, in teaching in education, it's influencing our teacher candidates right now. They're going to be practicing them. So I thank you so much for that.
Marie-Hélène :I will, and thank you, you gave me ideas too. So We'll continue this this chat. Oh yeah, at another point.
Heather Woods :Thanks for listening to the SEL in Action podcast with Heather Woods. If you like the show and want to know more, check out SEL-in-Action.com or leave us a review on iTunes. Be sure to follow SEL in Action on Facebook and Twitter for updates on our podcast. I'll talk to you soon.